Continuing
with our series of a True account entitled Perfect Questions, Perfect
Answers… A search for meaning carries Bob Cohen, a young American Peace
Corps worker halfway around the world, to an ancient village in the
midst of West Bengal. There, in a small bamboo hut, he finds a teacher
who is able to tell him everything he ever wanted to know.
Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers By His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
Chapter Three
The Real Goal of life February 28, 1972 (continued)
Śrīla Prabhupāda: This movement is especially meant to enable a human being to reach the real goal of life.
Bob: The real goal… ?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: The real goal of life.
Bob: Is the real goal of life to know God?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Yes. To go back home, back to Godhead. That is the real goal of life.
The water that comes from the sea forms clouds, the clouds fall down as
rain, and the actual goal is to flow down the river and again enter the
sea. So, we have come from God, and now we are embarrassed by material
life. Therefore, our aim should be to get out of this embarrassing
situation and go back home, back to Godhead. This is the real goal of
life.
mām upetya punar janma
duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
["After
attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return
to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have
attained the highest perfection."] [Bg. 8.15] That is the version of
Bhagavad-gītā. If anyone comes to Me—mām upetya: he does not come back
again. Where? To this place—duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]. This place
is the abode of miseries. Everyone knows, but they have been befooled
by so-called leaders. Material life is miserable life. Kṛṣṇa says, God
says, that this place is duḥkhālayam—it is a place of miseries. And it
is also aśāśvatam, temporary. You cannot make a compromise: "All right,
let it be miserable. I shall remain here as an American or Indian." No.
That also you cannot do. You cannot remain an American. You may think
that, having been born in America, you are very happy. But you cannot
remain an American for long. You will have to be kicked out of that
place. And your next life you do not know! Therefore, it is duḥkhālayam
aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15]—miserable and temporary. That is our philosophy.
Bob: But when you have some knowledge of God, then life is not so miserable?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: No! Some knowledge will not do. You must have perfect knowledge.
janma karma ca me divyam
evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ
[Bg. 4.9]
Tattvataḥ
means "perfectly." Perfect knowledge is being taught in Bhagavad-gītā.
So, we are giving everyone in human society a chance to learn
Bhagavad-gītā as it is and make his life perfect. That is the Kṛṣṇa
consciousness movement. What does your science say about the
transmigration of the soul?
Bob: I think… that science… cannot deny or affirm it. Science does not know it.
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that science is imperfect.
Bob: Science may. though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed; it is changed.
Śrīla Prabhupāda: That's
all right. But how the energy is working in the future—that science
does not know. How is the energy diverted? How, by different
manipulations, is the energy working differently? For instance,
electrical energy. By different handling it is operating the heats and
it is operating the refrigerator. They are just the opposite, but the
electrical energy is the same. Similarly, this energy—living energy—how
is it being directed? Which way is it going? How is it fructifying in
the next life? That they do not know. But in Bhagavad-gītā it is very
simply stated.
vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya
[Bg. 2.22]
You
are covered by a dress, by a shirt. When this shirt is unuesable, you
change it. Similarly, this body is just like a shirt and coat. When it
is no longer workable, we have to change it.
Bob: What is the "we" that has to change? What is constant?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is the soul.
Bob: From one life to the next?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is the soul—I. What "you" is speaking? You! What "I" is speaking? Identity: ātmā, or soul.
Bob: My soul is different from your soul?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. You are an individual soul, I am an individual soul.
Bob:
You have removed yourself from karmic influences. If I was to remove
myself from karmic influences, would our souls be the same or different?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
The soul is of the same quality in all. You are under a certain
conception of life at the present moment, and these countrymen of yours
[the Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees] were under a certain conception of life,
but by training they have taken to another conception of life. So the
ultimate training is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the
perfection.
Bob: If two people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, is their soul the same?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: The soul is always the same.
Bob: In each person? In each person is it the same?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: [pointing to two devotees] If these two are Kṛṣṇa conscious, are their souls the same?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
The soul is the same but always individual, even if one is not Kṛṣṇa
conscious. For instance, you are a human being, and I am a human being.
Even if I am not a Christian, even if you are not a Hindu, still we are
human beings. Similarly, the soul may not be Kṛṣṇa conscious, or he may
be Kṛṣṇa conscious—it doesn't matter. But the soul is the soul.
Bob: Can you tell me more about this?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Soul—as pure spirit, all souls are equal. Even in an animal. Therefore
it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ: [Bg. 5.18] those who are actually
learned do not see the outward covering, either in a human being or in
an animal.
Bob: If I may ask another question on this?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob:
I have considered the soul somewhat as part of God. At times I think I
feel God. I'm here, and you may say God is here. So if the soul is
inside me, then should I be able to feel God inside me? Not all of God, I
mean, but a…
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Part of God.
Bob:
But I don't feel God in me, but God may be here, separate—separate from
me. But should I be able to feel God inside me, since my soul is Part
of God?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. God is inside also. God is everywhere. God is inside and outside also. This is to be known.
Bob: How do you feel God inside you?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Not in the beginning, but you have to know from the śāstras
[scriptures], by the Vedic information. For example, in the
Bhagavad-gītā it is said, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna
tiṣṭhati: [Bg. 18.61] God is there in everyone's heart.
Paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham: God is also within every atom. So this is the
first information. And then, by the yogic process, you have to realize
it.
Bob: Yogic process?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: Is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa such a yogic process?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, it is also a yogic process.
Bob: What kind of yogic process must I do to find out—to feel this information—to feel the soul inside?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many different yogic Processes, but for this age this process is very nice.
Bob: Chanting.
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: Through this I can feel not only God outside but God inside?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
You'll understand everything of God—how God is inside, how God is
outside, how God is working. Everything will be revealed. By this
attitude of service, God will reveal Himself. You cannot understand God
by your endeavor. Only if God reveals Himself. For instance, when the
sun is out of your sight at night, you cannot see it by your torchlight,
or any light. But in the morning you can see the sun automatically.
without any torchlight. Similarly, you have to create a situation—you
have to put yourself in a situation—in which God will be revealed. It is
not that by some method you can ask God, "Please come. I will see You."
No, God is not your order carrier.
Bob: You must please God for Him to reveal Himself. Is that correct?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: How do we know when we are pleasing God?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
When we see Him. Then you will understand. Just as, when you eat, you
do not require to ask anyone whether you are feeling strength or your
hunger is satisfied. If you eat, you understand that you are feeling
energy. You don't need to inquire from anyone. Similarly. if you
actually serve God, then you will understand, "God is dictating to me.
God is there. I am seeing God."
A devotee: Or God's representative.
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: It comes easier.
Śrīla Prabhupāda: You have to go through God's representative.
yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **
"By
the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted by the mercy of
Kṛṣṇa." If you please God's representative, then automatically God
becomes pleased, and thus you can directly see Him.
An Indian gentleman: How to please God's representative?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
You have to carry out his orders, that's all. God's representative is
the guru. He asks you to do this, to do that—if you do that, that is
pleasing.
yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi
"Without the grace
of the spiritual master one cannot make any advancement." If you
displease him, then you are nowhere. Therefore we worship the guru.
sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair
uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ
kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya
vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam **
["The
spiritual master is to be honored as much as the Supreme Lord because
of his being the most confidential servitor of the Lord. This is
acknowledged by all revealed scriptures and is followed by all
authorities. Therefore I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus
feet of such a spiritual master, who is a bona fide representative of
Lord Kṛṣṇa."] The guru should be accepted as God. That is the injunction
of all śāstra.
Bob: The guru should be accepted as a representative of God?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, the guru is God's representative. The guru is the external manifestation of Kṛṣṇa.
Bob: But different from the incarnations of Kṛṣṇa that come?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob:
In what way is the external manifestation of the guru different from
the external manifestation of, let us say, Kṛṣṇa or Caitanya when They
come to earth?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: The guru is the
representative of Kṛṣṇa. So there are symptoms of who is a guru. The
general symptoms are described in the Vedas.
tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet
samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham
[MU 1.2.12]
A
guru must come in a disciplic succession, and he must have heard
thoroughly about the Vedas from his spiritual master. Generally a guru's
symptom is that he is a perfect devotee, that's all. And he serves
Kṛṣṇa by preaching His message.
Bob: Lord Caitanya—He was a different type of guru than you are?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, no. Gurus cannot be of different types. All gurus are of one type.
Bob: But He was—was He also an incarnation at the same time?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, He is Kṛṣṇa Himself, but He is representing the guru.
Bob: I… I see.
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: And then…
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Because Kṛṣṇa was God, He demanded:
sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
[Bg. 18.66]
"Abandon
all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me." But people
misunderstood Him. Therefore Kṛṣṇa again came as a guru and taught
people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Doesn't He say in Bhagavad-gītā, "I am the spiritual master"?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Yes, He is the original spiritual master because He was accepted as
spiritual master by Arjuna. So what is the difficulty? Śiṣyas te 'haṁ
śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam. Arjuna told the Lord, "I am Your disciple, and
a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me." So unless He is a
spiritual master how does Arjuna become His disciple? He is the original
guru. Tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye: "It is He only who first imparted
Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmā, the first created being."
Therefore He is the original guru.
Bob: Kṛṣṇa.
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Yes. He is the original guru. Then His disciple Brahmā is a guru, then
his disciple Nārada is a guru, then his disciple Vyāsa is a guru—in this
way there is a guru-paramparā [disciplic succession of gurus]. Evaṁ
paramparā-prāptam: the transcendental knowledge is received through the
disciplic succession.
Bob: So a guru receives his knowledge
through the disciplic succession, not directly from Kṛṣṇa? Do you
receive some knowledge directly from Kṛṣṇa?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa's direct instruction is there: Bhagavad-gītā.
Bob: I see, but…
Śrīla Prabhupāda: But you have to learn it through the disciplic succession, otherwise you will misunderstand it.
Bob: But presently you do not receive information directly from Kṛṣṇa? It comes through the disciplic succession from the books?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
There is no difference. Suppose I say that this is a pencil. If you say
to him, "There is a pencil," and if he says to another man, "This is a
pencil," then what is the difference between his instruction and my
instructions?
Bob: Kṛṣṇa's mercy allows you to know this now?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
You can take Kṛṣṇa's mercy also, provided it is delivered as it is.
Just as we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says:
sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
[Bg. 18.66]
"Just
give up all other forms of religion and simply surrender unto Me." Now
we are saying that you should give up everything and surrender to Kṛṣṇa.
Therefore, there is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's instruction and our
instruction. There is no deviation. So if you receive knowledge in that
perfect way, that is as good as receiving instruction directly from
Kṛṣṇa. But we don't change anything.
Bob: When I pray reverently, faithfully, does Kṛṣṇa hear me?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bob: From me to Him?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
Yes, because He is within your heat He is always hearing you—whether
you are praying or not praying. When you are doing some nonsense, He is
also hearing you. And when you pray, that is very good—welcome.
Bob: To Kṛṣṇa's ear, is praying louder than nonsense?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
No. He is all-perfect. He can hear everything. Even if you don't speak,
even if you simply think, "I shall do it," then He hears you. Sarvasya
cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ: Kṛṣṇa is seated in everyone's heart.
Bob: But one should pray—is that so?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is his business—praying.
Bob: Whose business?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Every living entity's. That is the only business. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. That is the statement of the Vedas.
Bob: What does that mean?
Śrīla Prabhupāda:
He supplies everything to everyone. He is supplying food to everyone.
So He is the Father. So why should you not pray, "Father, give me this"?
Just as in the Christian Bible there is, "Father, give us our daily
bread." That is good—they are accepting the Supreme Father. But grown-up
children should not ask from the father; rather, they should be
prepared to serve the father. That is bhakti [devotion].
Bob: My questions you solve so nicely. [Everyone laughs with affection.]
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Thank you very much.
Bob: So, should I ask you another question now?
Śrīla Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Yes!
Text pasted from
Causless Mercy